Running Radar?

[Woody]

And now for the "I know how to drive in the snow" arguers- soooo, everybody else knows how to drive in the snow, too, right? Because every accident you've ever been in was your fault, right? Because the same mistake that is made on a dry road is NOT magnified when there is snow on the road, right?

To have 4WD and not use it is stupid. Period. It's called "wisdom".

I do use it... When necessary.

Are you telling me, snow hits the ground the week after thanks giving and your hubs are locked until April?

When someone who DOESN'T know how to drive in the snow makes a boneheaded move right in front of you, the laws of physics are suspended for your vehicle because "you know how to drive in the snow"? Not like it'd be nice to have it in 4WD to correct that slide you're in much quicker than if you were in 2WD, quick enough to keep you from hitting that car right next to you.

Well 4WD is not going to get you stopped and faster. And if you are pressing on your breaks you are not correcting any faster than if you were in 2WD.

[Woody]

I totaled a vehicle when i pulled it out of 4wd because I thought "I know how to drive in snow." turns out that i didn't know how to drive on black ice that was covered in a little snow, and my ass end swung around so fast that all i got out before i nailed a telephone pole was "fuck". So yeah, been there and done that, I drive in 4 wd in most snowy conditions.

You are mixing causation and coincidence.

4WD does nothing for you on black ice.

[Woody]

AT, you're agreement is right, true, and good but these guys are running on testosterone, think with their dicks, and will learn the hard way.
I know because 25 years ago I WAS ONE.

It has got nothing to do with testosterone, it is logical thinking. 4WD does nothing to prevent sliding around, it only helps accelerating.

[(MT)Montanafowler]

I totaled a vehicle when i pulled it out of 4wd because I thought "I know how to drive in snow." turns out that i didn't know how to drive on black ice that was covered in a little snow, and my ass end swung around so fast that all i got out before i nailed a telephone pole was "fuck". So yeah, been there and done that, I drive in 4 wd in most snowy conditions.

You are mixing causation and coincidence.

4WD does nothing for you on black ice.

well go ahead and do your thing, you'll learn someday. if you slide in 4wd, you tend to slide straight or nearly straight, enough to recover.

[Woody]

I totaled a vehicle when i pulled it out of 4wd because I thought "I know how to drive in snow." turns out that i didn't know how to drive on black ice that was covered in a little snow, and my ass end swung around so fast that all i got out before i nailed a telephone pole was "fuck". So yeah, been there and done that, I drive in 4 wd in most snowy conditions.

You are mixing causation and coincidence.

4WD does nothing for you on black ice.

well go ahead and do your thing, you'll learn someday. if you slide in 4wd, you tend to slide straight or nearly straight, enough to recover.

but only if a black cat didn't cross your path that morning.

[assateague]

4WD does nothing to prevent sliding around, it only helps accelerating.

Exactly. And since you know how to drive in the snow, tell me what you're trying do when you're in a slide to correct it.

[aunt betty]

You have to choose before you need it to use it or not. As AT said, you can't wait til you are sideways to quickly throw it in 4.

Better safe than sorry.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

We don't have snow year round and some years we get none.
If it's icy or snowy, four wheel drive...period.

But you and your penis want to argue no matter how dumb the argument is...you got a boner right now cuz you think you're winning.
Keep talkin' slick.

[Woody]

http://www.4x4abc.com/jeep101/safe.html

All motor vehicles need traction for safe steering - 4WD/AWD does not provide extra traction for steering...

The problem is, that most 4WD/AWD owners think they operate a safer system. Once moving (on any slippery stuff) they drive faster than they should and not as carefully and slowly as they would in a 2WD. Much more 4WD vehicles are involved in accidents on snow and ice than 2WD.

Bottom line
For very light snow, two-wheel drive will probably work fine. Front-wheel drive is preferred for slippery conditions, but either way you should get a vehicle with traction and electronic stability control. AWD or 4WD will provide added forward grip. And you'll get the most traction by combining any of those systems with winter tires.

http://bb4wa.com/winter-driving-tips/

Bill Burke is an internationally recognized trainer and recovery expert who teaches back country driving techniques, winching and extrication methods, vehicle preparation and maintenance, land navigation and woods skills through classes, private training, instructor and trail leader courses to individuals, families, groups, clubs, vehicle manufacturers and dealers, tour operators, government agencies, and all organizations that use 4WD vehicles in their operations.

"When in 4WD mode on the snowy, icy highways, the vehicle can stop no better than before. The increased traction and forward control (to a degree anyway) is actually reduced by the lack of stopping power due to road conditions. Driving like we have all the traction in the world only gets us in the ditch, upside down, in the guard rail, under a trailer rig and usually in a lot of trouble!"

[Woody]

4WD does nothing to prevent sliding around, it only helps accelerating.

Exactly. And since you know how to drive in the snow, tell me what you're trying do when you're in a slide to correct it.

On ice/slippery roads you are best served by keeping a constant speed not accelerating or decelerating.

BUT (and a big but) in your scenario the person in front of you has forced your hand and you have to decelerating, which 4WD will do nothing to help.

[aunt betty]

Anyone who owns a 4x4 knows they stop just like a regular vehicle.
We get it, got it, and knew it before you were born, hatched, or whatever.

[Woody]

For the record, I am not trying to convince you to stop driving in 4WD. If that makes you feel safer do it. Just giving you the knowledge to do with what you want.

I happen to go in and talk to my insurance agent yesterday in the middle of this discussion with y'all. I had to get my estimate for the accident I was in a few days ago... remember I was rear-ended. I asked him what his opinion was while I was sitting in his office. From the insurance company's point of view it provides no accident prevention. As a matter of fact, there is an extra charge for having a 4WD vehicle, because you are statistically more likely to get in an accident (during winter and summer) than a driver who doesn't have it.

[Woody]

Anyone who owns a 4x4 knows they stop just like a regular vehicle.
We get it, got it, and knew it before you were born, hatched, or whatever.

Do I need to feed it you like a baby, AB?

4WD does nothing to prevent sliding around, it only helps accelerating.

Exactly. And since you know how to drive in the snow, tell me what you're trying do when you're in a slide to correct it.

On ice/slippery roads you are best served by keeping a constant speed not accelerating or decelerating.

BUT (and a big but) in your scenario the person in front of you has forced your hand and you have to decelerating, which 4WD will do nothing to help.

By "do nothing", I mean it will not improve your steering or stopping (not just stopping). Once you break and start to spin or slide you are just a big sled. In deep snow 4WD will provide greater traction, but in light snow or ice the friction is so low there is no appreciable difference between 2WD and 4WD. It is a mater of physics. Like I said when it is necessary USE 4WD, but you are at best kidding yourself in the other conditions and at worst causing a sense of safety that will make you more likely to get in a bad situation.

[assateague]

Nonsense.

So what you are in effect saying is that in a slide situation, 4WD gives you no benefit over 2WD, and that is more than a little bullshit.

You keep saying "sliding" and "stopping". Of COURSE 4WD doesn't make you stop any quicker. But it most certainly gets you out of a slide quicker, or at the very least can direct you AWAY from the vehicle in front of you. You can have the two front wheels, pointed straight, which are nothing more than rudders if it's in 2WD, or you can have the two front wheels, pointed straight, which are drive wheels and are pulling you straight out of a slide, if it's in 4WD. Otherwise, you're arguing that there is no benefit to a front wheel drive vehicle over a rear wheel drive vehicle in less than optimum conditions. And from the very info you just posted, that's shown to be false.

[aunt betty]

Your sir...are one of them people who can not be wrong and will argue a point for days and days until the other party falls asleep and you win by default.
You're so right.
AT, myself and others just can't compete with WOODY. (Boner)
You are right
You are fucking right.
At all costs...you are right.
And yes, you are trying to tell me how to drive a truck.

Your insurance man's business is creating scenarios where his company refuses to pay claims. And you believe him?

[assateague]

And tell your insurance agent that he's full of shit. 4WD vehicles are more expensive to insure because they're more expensive to fix if necessary. Period. Not because of "behavior". Otherwise, it'd cost more to insure a subaru than a 2WD Escalade.

[Woody]

Nonsense.

So what you are in effect saying is that in a slide situation, 4WD gives you no benefit over 2WD, and that is more than a little bullshit.

You keep saying "sliding" and "stopping". Of COURSE 4WD doesn't make you stop any quicker. But it most certainly gets you out of a slide quicker, or at the very least can direct you AWAY from the vehicle in front of you. You can have the two front wheels, pointed straight, which are nothing more than rudders if it's in 2WD, or you can have the two front wheels, pointed straight, which are drive wheels and are pulling you straight out of a slide, if it's in 4WD. Otherwise, you're arguing that there is no benefit to a front wheel drive vehicle over a rear wheel drive vehicle in less than optimum conditions. And from the very info you just posted, that's shown to be false.

I posted for you expert opinions. If that is "more than a little bullshit" then so be it.

Front-wheel drive is preferred for slippery conditions

You're right, it does say that...
And I completely agree that it is easier to correct in FWD than RWD, but if done properly correcting can be done in both effectively.

I'm done discussing it... Yes there is an advantage to driving in 4WD, but is it an appreciable one? That is for everyone to decide on their own.


and FUCK you Betty, just because you are older does not make you right... sometimes lessons are learned but the cause is wrongly associated and therefore the wisdom gained may be useless.

[Woody]

And tell your insurance agent that he's full of shit. 4WD vehicles are more expensive to insure because they're more expensive to fix if necessary. Period. Not because of "behavior". Otherwise, it'd cost more to insure a subaru than a 2WD Escalade.

Then why does it cost more for a 17 year old than a 35 year old?

Is one more expensive to fix?

[aunt betty]

Yeah...you're right.
I surrender.

[assateague]

So then show me in that "expert opinion" where it says "4WD won't help you avoid an accident"? Like I said, you mention stopping and sliding. Stopping, I agree. But if you're telling me that 4WD won't help stop a slide faster than rear wheel drive, then yes, that is more than a little bullshit, and I don't care who says it. Furthermore, if they DO say that, their "expert" status should be revoked.

[assateague]

And tell your insurance agent that he's full of shit. 4WD vehicles are more expensive to insure because they're more expensive to fix if necessary. Period. Not because of "behavior". Otherwise, it'd cost more to insure a subaru than a 2WD Escalade.

Then why does it cost more for a 17 year old than a 35 year old?

Is one more expensive to fix?

According to your insurance agent, it wouldn't, if the 35 year old had 4WD and the 17 year old only had 2WD.

[jarbo03]

So then show me in that "expert opinion" where it says "4WD won't help you avoid an accident"? Like I said, you mention stopping and sliding. Stopping, I agree. But if you're telling me that 4WD won't help stop a slide faster than rear wheel drive, then yes, that is more than a little bullshit, and I don't care who says it. Furthermore, if they DO say that, their "expert" status should be revoked.

X2

[Woody]

And tell your insurance agent that he's full of shit. 4WD vehicles are more expensive to insure because they're more expensive to fix if necessary. Period. Not because of "behavior". Otherwise, it'd cost more to insure a subaru than a 2WD Escalade.

Then why does it cost more for a 17 year old than a 35 year old?

Is one more expensive to fix?

According to your insurance agent, it wouldn't, if the 35 year old had 4WD and the 17 year old only had 2WD.

Touche

[aunt betty]

Woody is trying to make the valid point that 4x4 gives inexperienced drivers a false sense of security and that actually causes accidents. His argument is valid...
He just don't argue very well.
Take philosophy (critical thinking and logic).

Then you can present much better, structured, arguments.

[assateague]

I would agree with that- in the hands of idiots, 4WD is a dangerous thing because of that false sense of security. But to say that 4WD isn't leaps and bounds safer than 2WD in shitty weather is silly. Like saying that guns are bad because idiots shoot people with them.

[Woody]

I would agree with that- in the hands of idiots, 4WD is a dangerous thing because of that false sense of security. But to say that 4WD isn't leaps and bounds safer than 2WD in shitty weather is silly. Like saying that guns are bad because idiots shoot people with them.

I'm only responding because of the red part... the last thing I need is someone thinking those are my thoughts...

In certain situations 4WD is much much much much much safer than 2WD! But in most on road snow situations it is not an appreciable difference.

I really don't want to argue or even discuss it any further, but please don't speculate on what I was doing or put words in my mouth.

[assateague]

I prefer two wheel too, I don't turn 4x4 on until I'm stuck.

[Woody]

I prefer two wheel too, I don't turn 4x4 on until I'm stuck.

Yes, and your point?

I prefer 2WD. because of my stated reasoning...

.... in most on road snow situations it is not an appreciable difference. .

Hence it is not worth the extra $6-700 a year, to me.

[Goldfish]

If you think 4by will stop a spin, you've been out of Minnesota too long. How's that work to spin those tires on a fwd vehicle with the tires turned? You go straight. Same with 4by engaged. Go to turn and with the front tires trying to speed up/slow down, they are going to loose traction and you won't be able to turn. I have this same agreement with my retarded friend who thinks that having his taco in 4by will give him loads of traction, then wonders why he always bombs the front end into snow banks while i drift around the corner no problem. Have that bad boy in 2wd and your front tires will grip to at least point you where you want to go. If you are going to hit the ditch in 2 wheel, you are going to in 4 wheel just as well. Only difference is that I'll back in and you will be nosed in.

And Montana, if you think 4by would have helped you on black ice any more than the 2by, you were doing something wrong in the first place. I've never hit a ditch, and I drove a Camaro thru a MN winter, with Dayton Daytonas for tires, no snow tires.

[Goldfish]

Most drivers on the road are so bad they can't comprehend a 4 way stop. You really want to try and use them as your example of people hitting ditches in the winter?

[DeadEye_Dan]

I haven't been stuck in a ditch since I was 14.
I have opinions on this subject, but I refuse to discuss them here, because I have 3 months of winter left to deal with and I'm not gonna jinx mydamnself.