IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

[3legged_lab]

A lawyer said to me that they may have a good case. EP may have skirted the law and pushed it to the maximum but it still might be legal. However, the lawyer told me today that the parts may be illegal and the ATF wants them. I believe the ATF doesn't care about the rest of the gun, just the lower receiver, which they consider illegal. I don't want to be any part of it. A plastic part is not worth consuming your life over in stress, time and money. There wouldn't be any charges against anyone that had one for a personal build.

I also spoke to the NRA today. The guy in their legal department or whatever department he was from hadn't even heard of the EP Armory case. They are consumed with CT. He transferred me to the NRA ILA. They told me to wait until further information comes out. They would release information when they could if anyone could possibly find themselves in trouble. The person told me there is a lot that is not being made public at the time. In other words, they know the whole story and are waiting to see how the ATF and the courts treat it. That made me a little uneasy I have to say. I wonder if these guys were up to something else. It's tough to read between the lines. When someone says something like that, you always think the worst.

Are you on vacation or something?

Why would you ask that question? The answer is no. I'm working, a lot.

because it would take me days to write a post like that and I assumed everyone else was wondering the same thing.

Are you high?

Probably

[aunt betty]

That house that was raided a few days ago is related to this.
What do you bet it has to do with them 80 percent lowers?
Computers were seized during the house raid.


http://www.illinoishomepage.net/story/d ... k6aTM1Ia3Q

[assateague]

I want somebody to raid the ATF and demand their customer list for the Fast And Furious. Pack of fucking hypocrites, peddling guns to Mexican drug dealers and then busting companies for selling a piece of plastic that you have to whittle. Bunch of dickheads.

[aunt betty]

I want somebody to raid the ATF and demand their customer list for the Fast And Furious. Pack of fucking hypocrites, peddling guns to Mexican drug dealers and then busting companies for selling a piece of plastic that you have to whittle. Bunch of dickheads.

I'm not sure of the details but it appears the parent company puked it's guts and the fed is going after the distribution network.
Of course that's just a betty theory.

[vincentpa]

That house that was raided a few days ago is related to this.
What do you bet it has to do with them 80 percent lowers?
Computers were seized during the house raid.


http://www.illinoishomepage.net/story/d ... k6aTM1Ia3Q

Betty. Sometimes I really wonder about you. Not one of those agencies were the ATF. I doubt it has anything to do with EP Lowers.

[aunt betty]

That house that was raided a few days ago is related to this.
What do you bet it has to do with them 80 percent lowers?
Computers were seized during the house raid.


http://www.illinoishomepage.net/story/d ... k6aTM1Ia3Q

Betty. Sometimes I really wonder about you. Not one of those agencies were the ATF. I doubt it has anything to do with EP Lowers.

I knew someone would say that. Don't ya think it's possible that two agencies could both break laws and become thugs?
Nawwwww. Never happen.

[assateague]

And wait just one fucking minute.


I don't NEED to go through an FFL to buy a firearm, if it is not a pistol. And an AR is not a pistol. I can go buy an AR from anyone face to face, with no check whatsoever, and it's perfectly legal. An FFL must only be involved if buying from a dealer or buying a pistol.

So the fact that I have an AR from one of these lowers makes not one bit of difference. If the feds wish to go after someone, they go after the one who sold it, not the one who bought it, if they are going to decide that the lower is a firearm. If I go to Gander Mountain, and they tell me "you don't need an FFL check for this, because it's a muzzleloader", and I walk out with it, but it turns out that it IS in fact a "firearm", then that's their problem, not mine. The ATF appears to be just making shit up as they go along.

[sws002]

And wait just one fucking minute.


I don't NEED to go through an FFL to buy a firearm, if it is not a pistol. And an AR is not a pistol. I can go buy an AR from anyone face to face, with no check whatsoever, and it's perfectly legal. An FFL must only be involved if buying from a dealer or buying a pistol.

So the fact that I have an AR from one of these lowers makes not one bit of difference. If the feds wish to go after someone, they go after the one who sold it, not the one who bought it, if they are going to decide that the lower is a firearm. If I go to Gander Mountain, and they tell me "you don't need an FFL check for this, because it's a muzzleloader", and I walk out with it, but it turns out that it IS in fact a "firearm", then that's their problem, not mine. The ATF appears to be just making shit up as they go along.

Just an FYI, you don't need an FFL for a private party sale of a pistol either. Some states require it (I imagine MD being one of them) but the ATF currently has no jurisdiction in private party sales.

[vincentpa]

That house that was raided a few days ago is related to this.
What do you bet it has to do with them 80 percent lowers?
Computers were seized during the house raid.


http://www.illinoishomepage.net/story/d ... k6aTM1Ia3Q

Betty. Sometimes I really wonder about you. Not one of those agencies were the ATF. I doubt it has anything to do with EP Lowers.

I knew someone would say that. Don't ya think it's possible that two agencies could both break laws and become thugs?
Nawwwww. Never happen.

No doubt but the action you posted above was by DHS, CIA and FBI which would imply some kind of terrorism related action. ATF is involved in illegal firearms. If this were their gig, they would be there getting their photos taken. It's how they get funding. Gubment Agencies never cooperate unless they absolutely have to. ATF feels like the red headed step child to the golden boy FBI.

[assateague]

True, I was speaking about here in the People's Republic. I bought pistols face to face when I lived in AZ, and should have remembered that not every can be like us.

[3legged_lab]

And wait just one fucking minute.


I don't NEED to go through an FFL to buy a firearm, if it is not a pistol. And an AR is not a pistol. I can go buy an AR from anyone face to face, with no check whatsoever, and it's perfectly legal. An FFL must only be involved if buying from a dealer or buying a pistol.

So the fact that I have an AR from one of these lowers makes not one bit of difference. If the feds wish to go after someone, they go after the one who sold it, not the one who bought it, if they are going to decide that the lower is a firearm. If I go to Gander Mountain, and they tell me "you don't need an FFL check for this, because it's a muzzleloader", and I walk out with it, but it turns out that it IS in fact a "firearm", then that's their problem, not mine. The ATF appears to be just making shit up as they go along.

Just an FYI, you don't need an FFL for a private party sale of a pistol either. Some states require it (I imagine MD being one of them) but the ATF currently has no jurisdiction in private party sales.

But I thought you were supposed to transfer ownership after the sale. Maybe that's only to relieve the seller of any future trouble that could be caused by the new owner?

[aunt betty]

Illinois says I have to keep a record of any person to person sale of a firearm for a period of ten years.

[assateague]

And wait just one fucking minute.


I don't NEED to go through an FFL to buy a firearm, if it is not a pistol. And an AR is not a pistol. I can go buy an AR from anyone face to face, with no check whatsoever, and it's perfectly legal. An FFL must only be involved if buying from a dealer or buying a pistol.

So the fact that I have an AR from one of these lowers makes not one bit of difference. If the feds wish to go after someone, they go after the one who sold it, not the one who bought it, if they are going to decide that the lower is a firearm. If I go to Gander Mountain, and they tell me "you don't need an FFL check for this, because it's a muzzleloader", and I walk out with it, but it turns out that it IS in fact a "firearm", then that's their problem, not mine. The ATF appears to be just making shit up as they go along.

Just an FYI, you don't need an FFL for a private party sale of a pistol either. Some states require it (I imagine MD being one of them) but the ATF currently has no jurisdiction in private party sales.

But I thought you were supposed to transfer ownership after the sale. Maybe that's only to relieve the seller of any future trouble that could be caused by the new owner?

State by state thing, I think.

[3legged_lab]

Im sure. As far as I know its private party is perfectly legal here.

[sws002]

And wait just one fucking minute.


I don't NEED to go through an FFL to buy a firearm, if it is not a pistol. And an AR is not a pistol. I can go buy an AR from anyone face to face, with no check whatsoever, and it's perfectly legal. An FFL must only be involved if buying from a dealer or buying a pistol.

So the fact that I have an AR from one of these lowers makes not one bit of difference. If the feds wish to go after someone, they go after the one who sold it, not the one who bought it, if they are going to decide that the lower is a firearm. If I go to Gander Mountain, and they tell me "you don't need an FFL check for this, because it's a muzzleloader", and I walk out with it, but it turns out that it IS in fact a "firearm", then that's their problem, not mine. The ATF appears to be just making shit up as they go along.

Just an FYI, you don't need an FFL for a private party sale of a pistol either. Some states require it (I imagine MD being one of them) but the ATF currently has no jurisdiction in private party sales.

But I thought you were supposed to transfer ownership after the sale. Maybe that's only to relieve the seller of any future trouble that could be caused by the new owner?

Only "ownership" occurs at the state level. The form you fill out at the dealer (4473) stays with the dealer for as long as they are in business or at least 25 years and nothing is ever actually reported back to the ATF. The only time anything is ever sent in to them is if you buy 2 or more handguns within a span of 5 business days, then a multiple handgun sale form is faxed to the ATF and to your local sheriffs department. Any registration or the like is only done through state mandate, you can sell a gun face to face to anybody you damn well please, and aren't required to do anything as far as the ATF is concerned. I personally recommend at least filling out a bill of sale, just a little protection, but nothing is required of you federally.

[assateague]

Which is what makes this whole thing stupid.

[vincentpa]

Illinois says I have to keep a record of any person to person sale of a firearm for a period of ten years.

Betty,
each state is different. In PA, we have to go to an FFL to transfer a handgun, even between family. We don't need an FFL for a private party sale of a long gun.

I have been talking to two lawyers and the NRA. One of the lawyers I've spoken to has a good friend in the ATF. I don't believe the ATF has any interest in individuals that bought the lowers other than to eventually take possession of them without any repercussions to the buyer at all. They may not even be able to take action against the buyer if they thought they could from the last article I read. The one experienced lawyer in gun law told me he would've told me not even to come down to see him had he not read the information I gave him an hour before our appointment. I will let everyone know exactly what I find out and what they want people that bought the lowers to do when I find out.

[sws002]

Illinois says I have to keep a record of any person to person sale of a firearm for a period of ten years.

Betty,
each state is different. In PA, we have to go to an FFL to transfer a handgun, even between family. We don't need an FFL for a private party sale of a long gun.

I have been talking to two lawyers and the NRA. One of the lawyers I've spoken to has a good friend in the ATF. I don't believe the ATF has any interest in individuals that bought the lowers other than to eventually take possession of them without any repercussions to the buyer at all. They may not even be able to take action against the buyer if they thought they could from the last article I read. The one experienced lawyer in gun law told me he would've told me not even to come down to see him had he not read the information I gave him an hour before our appointment. I will let everyone know exactly what I find out and what they want people that bought the lowers to do when I find out.

That's unfortunate that everyone who bought one subsequently sold it...

[vincentpa]

Illinois says I have to keep a record of any person to person sale of a firearm for a period of ten years.

Betty,
each state is different. In PA, we have to go to an FFL to transfer a handgun, even between family. We don't need an FFL for a private party sale of a long gun.

I have been talking to two lawyers and the NRA. One of the lawyers I've spoken to has a good friend in the ATF. I don't believe the ATF has any interest in individuals that bought the lowers other than to eventually take possession of them without any repercussions to the buyer at all. They may not even be able to take action against the buyer if they thought they could from the last article I read. The one experienced lawyer in gun law told me he would've told me not even to come down to see him had he not read the information I gave him an hour before our appointment. I will let everyone know exactly what I find out and what they want people that bought the lowers to do when I find out.

That's unfortunate that everyone who bought one subsequently sold it...

I believe that may be very poor advice. It may invite trouble where there really is none.

[aunt betty]

Illinois says I have to keep a record of any person to person sale of a firearm for a period of ten years.

Betty,
each state is different. In PA, we have to go to an FFL to transfer a handgun, even between family. We don't need an FFL for a private party sale of a long gun.

I have been talking to two lawyers and the NRA. One of the lawyers I've spoken to has a good friend in the ATF. I don't believe the ATF has any interest in individuals that bought the lowers other than to eventually take possession of them without any repercussions to the buyer at all. They may not even be able to take action against the buyer if they thought they could from the last article I read. The one experienced lawyer in gun law told me he would've told me not even to come down to see him had he not read the information I gave him an hour before our appointment. I will let everyone know exactly what I find out and what they want people that bought the lowers to do when I find out.

VP, I know. I buy hunting licenses in several states and have to know each state's laws about having guns in a vehicle at least.
They have different hunting seasons too...go figure.

[sws002]

Illinois says I have to keep a record of any person to person sale of a firearm for a period of ten years.

Betty,
each state is different. In PA, we have to go to an FFL to transfer a handgun, even between family. We don't need an FFL for a private party sale of a long gun.

I have been talking to two lawyers and the NRA. One of the lawyers I've spoken to has a good friend in the ATF. I don't believe the ATF has any interest in individuals that bought the lowers other than to eventually take possession of them without any repercussions to the buyer at all. They may not even be able to take action against the buyer if they thought they could from the last article I read. The one experienced lawyer in gun law told me he would've told me not even to come down to see him had he not read the information I gave him an hour before our appointment. I will let everyone know exactly what I find out and what they want people that bought the lowers to do when I find out.

That's unfortunate that everyone who bought one subsequently sold it...

I believe that may be very poor advice. It may invite trouble where there really is none.

Care to explain how?

[sws002]

Quite honestly, I'm quite confused as to how there is any "customer list". If the guns are unserialized and no background check is needed, how the fuck would they stand to know who bought one? That's like me trying to compile a list of everyone who bought ammo from us in the past year.

[vincentpa]

Illinois says I have to keep a record of any person to person sale of a firearm for a period of ten years.

Betty,
each state is different. In PA, we have to go to an FFL to transfer a handgun, even between family. We don't need an FFL for a private party sale of a long gun.

I have been talking to two lawyers and the NRA. One of the lawyers I've spoken to has a good friend in the ATF. I don't believe the ATF has any interest in individuals that bought the lowers other than to eventually take possession of them without any repercussions to the buyer at all. They may not even be able to take action against the buyer if they thought they could from the last article I read. The one experienced lawyer in gun law told me he would've told me not even to come down to see him had he not read the information I gave him an hour before our appointment. I will let everyone know exactly what I find out and what they want people that bought the lowers to do when I find out.

That's unfortunate that everyone who bought one subsequently sold it...

I believe that may be very poor advice. It may invite trouble where there really is none.

Care to explain how?

If the ATF comes looking for a firearm they have deemed to be illegal and you are not in possession of it or have sold it, you could be in hot water.

[Olly]

If the ATF comes looking for a firearm they have deemed to be illegal and you are not in possession of it or have sold it, you could be in hot water.

Why? It wasn't illegal when X person sold it.

[vincentpa]

If the ATF comes looking for a firearm they have deemed to be illegal and you are not in possession of it or have sold it, you could be in hot water.

Why? It wasn't illegal when X person sold it.

Yes it was. The buyer just didn't know it.

[sws002]

That's unfortunate that everyone who bought one subsequently sold it...

I believe that may be very poor advice. It may invite trouble where there really is none.

Care to explain how?

If the ATF comes looking for a firearm they have deemed to be illegal and you are not in possession of it or have sold it, you could be in hot water.

First of all, how do they know you have said firearm? If you didn't have to do a background check, how should they know who ended up with them?

Secondly , all you bought was a piece of plastic. That's like the ATF coming and asking for all of my decoys, because they have now determined them to be firearms and I am in trouble for having sold them.

Even if they do find out who bought them, and they do determine that they are indeed firearms, there is nothing federally that prevents you from privately selling a firearm to anyone you so please.

So I ask again, how is that a bad response?

[vincentpa]

Quite honestly, I'm quite confused as to how there is any "customer list". If the guns are unserialized and no background check is needed, how the fuck would they stand to know who bought one? That's like me trying to compile a list of everyone who bought ammo from us in the past year.

EP Armory like most businesses did their business on computers. They made invoices on computers. There is a paper trail or more appropriately, an electronic trail.

[vincentpa]

That's unfortunate that everyone who bought one subsequently sold it...

I believe that may be very poor advice. It may invite trouble where there really is none.

Care to explain how?

If the ATF comes looking for a firearm they have deemed to be illegal and you are not in possession of it or have sold it, you could be in hot water.

First of all, how do they know you have said firearm? If you didn't have to do a background check, how should they know who ended up with them?

Secondly , all you bought was a piece of plastic. That's like the ATF coming and asking for all of my decoys, because they have now determined them to be firearms and I am in trouble for having sold them.

Even if they do find out who bought them, and they do determine that they are indeed firearms, there is nothing federally that prevents you from privately selling a firearm to anyone you so please.

So I ask again, how is that a bad response?

The ATF has deemed that piece of plastic to be an illegal firearm. There determination would be the basis of prosecution. It is up to the manufacturer to argue against this determination at great cost to them. EP Armory is the manufacturer and they have one of the biggest gun rights lawyers arguing their case with support of the NRA. Maybe they will prevail. Who knows? But it doesn't look good.

If you sell this "illegal firearm", you may have some explaining to do when all you will have to do is just give it up. What is the smart thing to do?

[sws002]

The ATF has deemed that piece of plastic to be an illegal firearm. There determination would be the basis of prosecution. It is up to the manufacturer to argue against this determination at great cost to them. EP Armory is the manufacturer and they have one of the biggest gun rights lawyers arguing their case with support of the NRA. Maybe they will prevail. Who knows? But it doesn't look good.

If you sell this "illegal firearm", you may have some explaining to do when all you will have to do is just give it up. What is the smart thing to do?

The ATF is the ones who deemed this piece of plastic was not a firearm at all. Which is the only knowledge with which you purchased it. Where do you draw the line? I'll tell you where, 80%, that is the threshold in which the ATF determined is legally NOT a firearm. It was purchased legally, so selling it is legal. If they make it illegal and you sell it AFTER, that is a different story altogether.

[huntall6]

[quote="sws002"]
That's unfortunate that everyone who bought one subsequently sold it...

I believe that may be very poor advice. It may invite trouble where there really is none.

Care to explain how?

If the ATF comes looking for a firearm they have deemed to be illegal and you are not in possession of it or have sold it, you could be in hot water.

First of all, how do they know you have said firearm? If you didn't have to do a background check, how should they know who ended up with them?

Secondly , all you bought was a piece of plastic. That's like the ATF coming and asking for all of my decoys, because they have now determined them to be firearms and I am in trouble for having sold them.

Even if they do find out who bought them, and they do determine that they are indeed firearms, there is nothing federally that prevents you from privately selling a firearm to anyone you so please.

So I ask again, how is that a bad response?

The ATF has deemed that piece of plastic to be an illegal firearm. There determination would be the basis of prosecution. It is up to the manufacturer to argue against this determination at great cost to them. EP Armory is the manufacturer and they have one of the biggest gun rights lawyers arguing their case with support of the NRA. Maybe they will prevail. Who knows? But it doesn't look good.

If you sell this "illegal firearm", you may have some explaining to do when all you will have to do is just give it up. What is the smart thing to do?[/quote]

Smart thing? Stand up for your rights. These 80% lowers were deemed legal. Why should I give up something I bought legally? Would you give up a hot rod you built because they deemed a 454 illegal after you built it?