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How much information is actually retained off these forms. Does it just document the sale or can they actually track that the serial number on your gun should belong to you?

They keep everything

Including a fired shell casing.

The only gun I own is a 40 year old Marlin .22 and a youth 20ga Remington that I hunt ducks with.

But it all breaks down after that, since face to face, gun show, and classified ad sales are perfectly legal most places, and require no registration documents. Even here, somehow, believe it or not.

Olly wrote:The only gun I own is a 40 year old Marlin .22 and a youth 20ga Remington that I hunt ducks with.

As far as anyone knows, I own a .22, a .380, and a 12 ga.

I sold all my guns during the Clinton administration

The one gun I own that I wish I didn't is my 1911. But since I carry it I chose it to be that way.

I was "cleaning" out my Jeep, since I was going to hunt a questionable spot, with a high likelihood of game warden interference a few weeks ago. Imagine my surprise when I pulled out not one but two shotguns from behind the rear seat

Olly wrote:The only gun I own is a 40 year old Marlin .22 and a youth 20ga Remington that I hunt ducks with.

i own a .45, a 20ga, and my wife has a 9mm.

assateague wrote:But it all breaks down after that, since face to face, gun show, and classified ad sales are perfectly legal most places, and require no registration documents. Even here, somehow, believe it or not.

here we have to retain the buyer's FOID (firearm owner identification card<complete violation of the 2nd amendment) information for something like 10 years when you sell a gun.

The only guns I own are a 20ga a 12ga and a 22

assateague wrote:I was "cleaning" out my Jeep, since I was going to hunt a questionable spot, with a high likelihood of game warden interference a few weeks ago. Imagine my surprise when I pulled out not one but two shotguns from behind the rear seat

yea that is kinda funny

huntall6 wrote:

assateague wrote:But it all breaks down after that, since face to face, gun show, and classified ad sales are perfectly legal most places, and require no registration documents. Even here, somehow, believe it or not.

here we have to retain the buyer's FOID (firearm owner identification card<complete violation of the 2nd amendment) information for something like 10 years when you sell a gun.

I think MD may be similar, without the FOID card. Have to send paperwork to the po-po. But if you buy it out of state, you're under no obligation whatsoever to register it here. And other states have face to face sales with no paperwork. Prove I didn't buy it somewhere else.

The only guns I own are a M134D Gatling gun, an FN F2000 and AA-12

I don't own a gun.

Me either got rid of all of them

Sold 'em all at a yard sale to pay for gag balls and spermacidal lubricant.

3legged_lab wrote:Sold 'em all at a yard sale to pay for gag balls and spermacidal lubricant.

Both necessities for the coming end of days.

Flightstopper wrote:How much information is actually retained off these forms. Does it just document the sale or can they actually track that the serial number on your gun should belong to you?

At what level? The paper form you fill out at the dealer is kept at the dealer for at least 25 years, or until the business closes its doors, and then they are sent to a filing center. As far as what is reported to the ATF upon calling in a background check, there isn't near as much info kept on file as you would think (which is why you have to do a background check EVERY time you buy a gun, provided you don't have a state exemption to it). Once a Proceed or Denied response has been given, they only info that is retained from the background check is the NTN #, the response (Proceed/Denied), the date and what type of gun is being sold (long gun/hand gun/other). All of your personal information is wiped clean once a Proceed/Denied is issued, and they don't even know whether you are getting a shotgun or a rifle, let alone the brand, model, or serial number of the gun you are buying. That being said, they also don't know how many guns you buy, they only ever ask what type, to which if I respond long gun, you could be buying 10 long guns, and they will never know any other way. Despite popular belief, the form you fill out at your dealer (ATF Form 4473) does NOT register your firearm, and the only place that the firearm could even be remotely considered "registered" to your name is on that very form, which stays with the dealer for the next 25 years at least. There are still a few states that require registration of handguns, however, but that is on a state to state basis, not by federal mandate. So, the question arises, say you sell your gun, or your guns get stolen, or whatever the scenario and the gun you originally purchased from the dealer ends up being used in a crime, how do they find out who had it? The ATF does not have some magic button that they type in a serial # and voila, a name and address pops up. They physically have to call the manufacturer to see where the gun went, then call the distributor, and then the store, and the store will have to physically go through their files and look up to whom the gun was sold. The store would then fax the ATF the info on who originally purchased the gun and the ATF would then contact you. Seeing as how private sales are not currently regulated, all you are required to tell them is that you sold the gun, and you are clear (provided they don't later find the gun in your possession), or that the gun was stolen, or whatever caused you to no longer be in possession of the gun. Even though you are legally allowed to sell your guns (or buy them, for that matter) without any documentation, I still always recommend writing up a bill of sale, as it's never a bad idea to have documentation to back your claims. That cover it?

3legged_lab wrote:Sold 'em all at a yard sale to pay for gag balls and spermacidal lubricant.

That's funny chit.

They can have my Red Rider when they pry it from my cold dead hands!

Thanks for the write up. That's closer to what I had thought they did

sws002 wrote:

Flightstopper wrote:How much information is actually retained off these forms. Does it just document the sale or can they actually track that the serial number on your gun should belong to you?

At what level? The paper form you fill out at the dealer is kept at the dealer for at least 25 years, or until the business closes its doors, and then they are sent to a filing center. As far as what is reported to the ATF upon calling in a background check, there isn't near as much info kept on file as you would think (which is why you have to do a background check EVERY time you buy a gun, provided you don't have a state exemption to it). Once a Proceed or Denied response has been given, they only info that is retained from the background check is the NTN #, the response (Proceed/Denied), the date and what type of gun is being sold (long gun/hand gun/other). All of your personal information is wiped clean once a Proceed/Denied is issued, and they don't even know whether you are getting a shotgun or a rifle, let alone the brand, model, or serial number of the gun you are buying. That being said, they also don't know how many guns you buy, they only ever ask what type, to which if I respond long gun, you could be buying 10 long guns, and they will never know any other way. Despite popular belief, the form you fill out at your dealer (ATF Form 4473) does NOT register your firearm, and the only place that the firearm could even be remotely considered "registered" to your name is on that very form, which stays with the dealer for the next 25 years at least. There are still a few states that require registration of handguns, however, but that is on a state to state basis, not by federal mandate. So, the question arises, say you sell your gun, or your guns get stolen, or whatever the scenario and the gun you originally purchased from the dealer ends up being used in a crime, how do they find out who had it? The ATF does not have some magic button that they type in a serial # and voila, a name and address pops up. They physically have to call the manufacturer to see where the gun went, then call the distributor, and then the store, and the store will have to physically go through their files and look up to whom the gun was sold. The store would then fax the ATF the info on who originally purchased the gun and the ATF would then contact you. Seeing as how private sales are not currently regulated, all you are required to tell them is that you sold the gun, and you are clear (provided they don't later find the gun in your possession), or that the gun was stolen, or whatever caused you to no longer be in possession of the gun. Even though you are legally allowed to sell your guns (or buy them, for that matter) without any documentation, I still always recommend writing up a bill of sale, as it's never a bad idea to have documentation to back your claims. That cover it?

Don't believe that for a second, ATF has a magic button, they are probably watching me eat my eggs and potatoes right now

sws002 wrote:

Flightstopper wrote:How much information is actually retained off these forms. Does it just document the sale or can they actually track that the serial number on your gun should belong to you?

At what level? The paper form you fill out at the dealer is kept at the dealer for at least 25 years, or until the business closes its doors, and then they are sent to a filing center. As far as what is reported to the ATF upon calling in a background check, there isn't near as much info kept on file as you would think (which is why you have to do a background check EVERY time you buy a gun, provided you don't have a state exemption to it). Once a Proceed or Denied response has been given, they only info that is retained from the background check is the NTN #, the response (Proceed/Denied), the date and what type of gun is being sold (long gun/hand gun/other). All of your personal information is wiped clean once a Proceed/Denied is issued, and they don't even know whether you are getting a shotgun or a rifle, let alone the brand, model, or serial number of the gun you are buying. That being said, they also don't know how many guns you buy, they only ever ask what type, to which if I respond long gun, you could be buying 10 long guns, and they will never know any other way. Despite popular belief, the form you fill out at your dealer (ATF Form 4473) does NOT register your firearm, and the only place that the firearm could even be remotely considered "registered" to your name is on that very form, which stays with the dealer for the next 25 years at least. There are still a few states that require registration of handguns, however, but that is on a state to state basis, not by federal mandate. So, the question arises, say you sell your gun, or your guns get stolen, or whatever the scenario and the gun you originally purchased from the dealer ends up being used in a crime, how do they find out who had it? The ATF does not have some magic button that they type in a serial # and voila, a name and address pops up. They physically have to call the manufacturer to see where the gun went, then call the distributor, and then the store, and the store will have to physically go through their files and look up to whom the gun was sold. The store would then fax the ATF the info on who originally purchased the gun and the ATF would then contact you. Seeing as how private sales are not currently regulated, all you are required to tell them is that you sold the gun, and you are clear (provided they don't later find the gun in your possession), or that the gun was stolen, or whatever caused you to no longer be in possession of the gun. Even though you are legally allowed to sell your guns (or buy them, for that matter) without any documentation, I still always recommend writing up a bill of sale, as it's never a bad idea to have documentation to back your claims. That cover it?

This is good to know. I only have to burn down two stores, now, and I become a ghost again.

Bootlipkiller wrote:

3legged_lab wrote:Sold 'em all at a yard sale to pay for gag balls and spermacidal lubricant.

That's funny chit.

Unwanted pregnancy is no laughing matter.

SW hit the nail on the head. Also (I only know this because one of my former coworkers works for the FBI full time) is the ATF purges their system every 48 hours. So really that fancy form is just simply a written background check.

MOhuntingGuy wrote:SW hit the nail on the head. Also (I only know this because one of my former coworkers works for the FBI full time) is the ATF purges their system every 48 hours. So really that fancy form is just simply a written background check.

Yup, the only time your information is ever kept on file is if you specifically request for it to be by completing a VAF (Voluntary Appeal File). Basically, this is for people who frequently have troubles getting delayed in their background checks (especially people with common names, i.e. John Smith). All the VAF essentially does is request for the ATF to keep your information on file, so that the next time you call in for a background check, they will pull up your file (retrieved with your UPIN, more on that later) and verify that you are still okay to buy a gun and are not someone else with a similar name who is unable to buy a gun. So next time you fill out a 4473 at your local gun shop, and you find yourself asking "What is a UPIN?", and the sales associate replies, "If you don't know what it is, you don't have one," that's what it is. It is basically a file that you have requested to have set up with the ATF, that upon supplying the dealer with the UPIN, your info is already on file with the NICS when the background check is called in.