WaterfowlForum.Net

assateague wrote:

Westie25 wrote:

jarbo03 wrote:The prey drive is very strong, Taz has killed many rabbits, 2 groundhogs, and 3 raccoons. He no longer chases while hunting, but the backyard is open game. Like any dog, teach them boundaries. It is cool havibg a dog that breaks ice in the morning, points upland birds in afternoon, then could blood track or varmibt hunt at night.

Remember that time I put him in my truck so I didn't back over him? God it took me 3 hours to get this thing clean. Ha.

You're saying Taz is hyper in a vehicle, too? Good. I thought Dutch was just water headed when it came to that. The first 10-15 minutes, that sonofabitch is like a crackhead in the Jeep.

No, in his defense, he was calm once he got in there. He was just pretty wet and quite muddy. And on black leather interior that shit shows quick.

Westie25 wrote:

assateague wrote:

Westie25 wrote:

jarbo03 wrote:The prey drive is very strong, Taz has killed many rabbits, 2 groundhogs, and 3 raccoons. He no longer chases while hunting, but the backyard is open game. Like any dog, teach them boundaries. It is cool havibg a dog that breaks ice in the morning, points upland birds in afternoon, then could blood track or varmibt hunt at night.

Remember that time I put him in my truck so I didn't back over him? God it took me 3 hours to get this thing clean. Ha.

You're saying Taz is hyper in a vehicle, too? Good. I thought Dutch was just water headed when it came to that. The first 10-15 minutes, that sonofabitch is like a crackhead in the Jeep.

No, in his defense, he was calm once he got in there. He was just pretty wet and quite muddy. And on black leather interior that shit shows quick.

Ha. Was nice of you to put him in your brand new truck! That is why you get leather. He is typically chilled in the truck, he gets excited once the road turns to gravel.

assateague wrote:

Westie25 wrote:

jarbo03 wrote:The prey drive is very strong, Taz has killed many rabbits, 2 groundhogs, and 3 raccoons. He no longer chases while hunting, but the backyard is open game. Like any dog, teach them boundaries. It is cool havibg a dog that breaks ice in the morning, points upland birds in afternoon, then could blood track or varmibt hunt at night.

Remember that time I put him in my truck so I didn't back over him? God it took me 3 hours to get this thing clean. Ha.

You're saying Taz is hyper in a vehicle, too? Good. I thought Dutch was just water headed when it came to that. The first 10-15 minutes, that sonofabitch is like a crackhead in the Jeep.

My lab is a psycho for the first 15 minutes in the vehicle. I hate it and its why I don't bring him everywhere with me

Eric Haynes wrote:

assateague wrote:

Westie25 wrote:

jarbo03 wrote:The prey drive is very strong, Taz has killed many rabbits, 2 groundhogs, and 3 raccoons. He no longer chases while hunting, but the backyard is open game. Like any dog, teach them boundaries. It is cool havibg a dog that breaks ice in the morning, points upland birds in afternoon, then could blood track or varmibt hunt at night.

Remember that time I put him in my truck so I didn't back over him? God it took me 3 hours to get this thing clean. Ha.

You're saying Taz is hyper in a vehicle, too? Good. I thought Dutch was just water headed when it came to that. The first 10-15 minutes, that **** is like a crackhead in the Jeep.

My lab is a psycho for the first 15 minutes in the vehicle. I hate it and its why I don't bring him everywhere with me

My lab even at her old age goes nuts but she chills out soon as I open the door and tell her to load up

assateague wrote:One thing that is not to be discounted, no matter what you hunt- the griffs don't shed. At all. Not a bit. Though I will probably never hunt traditional upland, I wanted a griff due to the breeding program, really. Yes, excellent labs are everywhere, but there's just so darn many labs in general that it gets a little more complicated knowing that you have a "good" hunting breeding, versus just a money maker breeding, so to speak. If that makes sense.

If you know how to read a pedigree, it makes no sense at all. Keep in mind, if all the ducks are in a row, you will pay for a pup out of good breeding.

RonE wrote:

assateague wrote:One thing that is not to be discounted, no matter what you hunt- the griffs don't shed. At all. Not a bit. Though I will probably never hunt traditional upland, I wanted a griff due to the breeding program, really. Yes, excellent labs are everywhere, but there's just so darn many labs in general that it gets a little more complicated knowing that you have a "good" hunting breeding, versus just a money maker breeding, so to speak. If that makes sense.

If you know how to read a pedigree, it makes no sense at all. Keep in mind, if all the ducks are in a row, you will pay for a pup out of good breeding.

I'm well aware of that my Dixie came from five oaks retreat in Goodlettsville wonderful dog but expensive she's coming on 12 and worth every penny

Though I'm not a Lab guy, I can't imagine a breed it's easier to find good hunting blood in, thanks in large part to the hunting retriever tests that are popular all over the country. Couldn't be much easier to go watch a slew and a half of them work, get to know them a bit and check with their owners about the availability of similar blood. The less popular a breed is among hunters, the more difficult it's apt to be to find really good hunters within it.

Rick wrote:Though I'm not a Lab guy, I can't imagine a breed it's easier to find good hunting blood in, thanks in large part to the hunting retriever tests that are popular all over the country. Couldn't be much easier to go watch a slew and a half of them work, get to know them a bit and check with their owners about the availability of similar blood. The less popular a breed is among hunters, the more difficult it's apt to be to find really good hunters within it.

Very true I was turned on to the breeder of my lab by a friend of my dad we hunted with down on Reel foot lake

That's true Rick, but only because of numbers. Percentage wise I would say it is much easier to find a well bred griff or similar dog.

jarbo03 wrote:That's true Rick, but only because of numbers. Percentage wise I would say it is much easier to find a well bred griff or similar dog.

I've found a few breeders within a few hours of me thinking about checking some of them out after a little more research

DixieDawg wrote:

jarbo03 wrote:That's true Rick, but only because of numbers. Percentage wise I would say it is much easier to find a well bred griff or similar dog.

I've found a few breeders within a few hours of me thinking about checking some of them out after a little more research

Research is your friend, I spent 2 years before I got Taz. Which breeders are they?

Plum creek in Axsom,GA , Oconee in Dublin GA and Kobalt in Ringold GA
And after that BeeTree farms in Frankfort KY

Rick wrote:Though I'm not a Lab guy, I can't imagine a breed it's easier to find good hunting blood in, thanks in large part to the hunting retriever tests that are popular all over the country. Couldn't be much easier to go watch a slew and a half of them work, get to know them a bit and check with their owners about the availability of similar blood. The less popular a breed is among hunters, the more difficult it's apt to be to find really good hunters within it.

I would also argue that the MORE popular a breed is with hunters, the EASIER it is to find a really shitty one.

3legged_lab wrote:

assateague wrote:One thing that is not to be discounted, no matter what you hunt- the griffs don't shed. At all. Not a bit.

This has been a huge factor for my considerations so far. I'm not in the market for a dog, just looking around as of now.

x2. I'm hoping Taz is ready, when I'm ready. That will make the decision easy.

DixieDawg wrote:Plum creek in Axsom,GA , Oconee in Dublin GA and Kobalt in Ringold GA
And after that BeeTree farms in Frankfort KY

Haven't heard of them, know more about some northern dogs. Don't be afraid to travel, AT drove many miles to pick up his pup. Taz has a few future breedings planned, of course if tests and health certs check out well. If they happen should be good dogs, I have hunted with one of the females a lot, and followed the other. I can ask a few guys of good breeders to check out in your area.

Feelin' Fowl wrote:

3legged_lab wrote:

assateague wrote:One thing that is not to be discounted, no matter what you hunt- the griffs don't shed. At all. Not a bit.

This has been a huge factor for my considerations so far. I'm not in the market for a dog, just looking around as of now.

x2. I'm hoping Taz is ready, when I'm ready. That will make the decision easy.

If not, you should wait.

@Duckdog might also have some info about the drahthaar. Through his research he may have talked to some breeders in that area.

That'd be great like I said before I've always had labs but the more I research the more I like what I read about the WPG

RonE wrote:

assateague wrote:One thing that is not to be discounted, no matter what you hunt- the griffs don't shed. At all. Not a bit. Though I will probably never hunt traditional upland, I wanted a griff due to the breeding program, really. Yes, excellent labs are everywhere, but there's just so darn many labs in general that it gets a little more complicated knowing that you have a "good" hunting breeding, versus just a money maker breeding, so to speak. If that makes sense.

If you know how to read a pedigree, it makes no sense at all. Keep in mind, if all the ducks are in a row, you will pay for a pup out of good breeding.

course if all the ducks are in a row, a mutt could retrieve em

assateague wrote:

Rick wrote:Though I'm not a Lab guy, I can't imagine a breed it's easier to find good hunting blood in, thanks in large part to the hunting retriever tests that are popular all over the country. Couldn't be much easier to go watch a slew and a half of them work, get to know them a bit and check with their owners about the availability of similar blood. The less popular a breed is among hunters, the more difficult it's apt to be to find really good hunters within it.

I would also argue that the MORE popular a breed is with hunters, the EASIER it is to find a really shitty one.

Even if that's true, so what? It would only be meaningful to the clueless, and most of them probably won't know or care that they bought shit. Buyers who are half way sharp will do their homework and find fine dogs quite easily within a breed of popular gundogs.

Folks often champion "my" breed, the Chesapeake, as being "unspoiled by popularity," and somehow being uniformly great gun dogs, because they haven't been widely bred for other purposes. That's a crock. Chesapeakes were never uniformly great gun dogs, no breed ever was or will be, and the fewer people are working to perpetuate and improve their aptitudes, the harder it becomes to find a top notch Chessie. Same is so of any breed.

I would argue that what little I know about the NA testing for versatile dogs does far, far more for the breed than basing breeding performance on traits which were trained in, rather than bred. If you can show me how labs are evaluated for their inherent abilities before any substantive training has taken place, I'll concede that point. But you and I both know it doesn't happen.

jarbo03 wrote:@Duckdog might also have some info about the drahthaar. Through his research he may have talked to some breeders in that area.

I'm not sure where "that area" is.
If you're serious about a Griff, you might wanna check out The Versatile Dog Forums.

http://versatiledogs.com/forum/index.ph ... 568b553b8f

There are several breeders there that take their breeding and the performance of their dogs seriously.

If you do enough research, you're going to find that there's a split between two separate factions of Griff people. (Three if you count the show dog crowd)
From what I've gathered, one group set off on their own thinking the Griff needed some new blood, so they interjected some Cesky Fousek (a breed that looks similar to the Griff), into the gene pool. From what I gather, their intentions were good, they just thought their breed was in trouble.
And then (I think) this group kept the name to the club WPGCA.
It appears that the other group wasn't convinced the breed was in trouble, so they split ways.
I THINK history is starting to prove that they were just fine without the outcrossed blood.
Just thought I'd throw this all out there. A guy oughta have as much information as possible, and maybe Jerry can give you some more insight into this...
This link might shed some light on the situation...
(Just for the record, I'm not affiliated with either side,...Hell, I'm a DD guy! Just some info I've picked up here and there)

http://www.griffonpoint.com/html/issue.html

With the Drahthaar, "shopping" is relatively easy in my opinion.
ALL DD's have to be approved for breeding.
In order to be approved for breeding, they have to pass
--A VJP- natural ability test before they're 14 months old
--An HZP- a more advanced natural ability the following fall
(The next test is the VGP, which is very advanced and although it's not mandatory for breeding purposes, most breeders run the dogs they intend on breeding through all the testing phases)
--An HN cert- a "hardness" test that just verifies they have what it takes to either dispatch a predator or at least won't leave it.
--Breed "show"- A breed warden goes over the dog here looking for faults. Teeth/Bite, eyes, coat length, coat color, facial furnishings, length and height have to be within specs,... etc...if they don't pass they don't breed
--Disposition- If any dog/dog or dog/man aggressiveness shows at any of these events,...they don't breed.
--blood tested for inheritable disorders
--X-rayed for hip disorders
--Gun sensativity- checked at all events, any signs and they don't breed.
I'm sure I've probably even left some out..., but the best thing about all of this is it's all public record!
And, that's what I mean by "easy shopping".
Any breeding that looks particularly interesting to you, once you see their "Ahnentafel" or papers, which are usually right there, you can see how they scored.
Now, before somebody else says it,...I'll say it first,...Test scores aren't everything and they don't always tell the whole story about a dog. But they can give you some excellent insight into what that litter might be capable of.
Especially if it's a repeat breeding and you can look at test scores of previous litters.

Now, having said all that,...
The "woolys" ain't for everyone.

Good info Kevin, I see you followed thevthred on v-dogs. Was actually wondering if you talked to any draht breeders from the southeast, Dixie Dawg is from east TN, would be nice for him to see some dogs. While I'm a griff guy, between the two, I'd rather someone pick from the right litter, regardless of the breed. Knowledge is power.

If really serious about a griff, I will be breeding Taz over the next two years, one of the females is owned by a member on here, could easily follow both dogs.

I can't think of any that I remember, or that stand out anyway.

This is a link to the VDD breeders page.
http://www.vdd-gna.org/breeders/

What you might think about doing is find a NAVHDA test or JGHV test or training day where you can go watch some of these dogs work.

jarbo03 wrote:

Feelin' Fowl wrote:

3legged_lab wrote:

assateague wrote:One thing that is not to be discounted, no matter what you hunt- the griffs don't shed. At all. Not a bit.

This has been a huge factor for my considerations so far. I'm not in the market for a dog, just looking around as of now.

x2. I'm hoping Taz is ready, when I'm ready. That will make the decision easy.

If not, you should wait.

I'll wait. Just hope it doesn't happen too soon.

Feelin' Fowl wrote:

jarbo03 wrote:

Feelin' Fowl wrote:

3legged_lab wrote:

assateague wrote:One thing that is not to be discounted, no matter what you hunt- the griffs don't shed. At all. Not a bit.

This has been a huge factor for my considerations so far. I'm not in the market for a dog, just looking around as of now.

x2. I'm hoping Taz is ready, when I'm ready. That will make the decision easy.

If not, you should wait.

I'll wait. Just hope it doesn't happen too soon.

He should have something going on.

assateague wrote:I would argue that what little I know about the NA testing for versatile dogs does far, far more for the breed than basing breeding performance on traits which were trained in, rather than bred. If you can show me how labs are evaluated for their inherent abilities before any substantive training has taken place, I'll concede that point. But you and I both know it doesn't happen.

Sorry, Jim, but you plainly don't know squat about NA testing. It's for dogs with basic training under their collars, just like JH or Started retriever testing. The abilities tested at that level can be as much "trained" as "natural," and the dog is graded on how well it does the work, not by how it got to that point. As with any level dog test I'm aware of, it still takes a knowledgeable observer to discern trained from inherent, if it can be done, because the certification won't make that distinction.

To me, the greatest benefit of any hunt testing is giving those who know what they're looking for the opportunity to watch a good number of dogs work and draw his own conclusions.

I'd suggest taking a look at DuckDog's post. He plainly does know "squat" about it.

And while it's easy to say the NA tests do nothing, I also asked if you could show me where labs (since we're talking about them, I guess) even pretend to evaluate any sort of inherent ability for breeding purposes.

Is there a lab NA testing process that I'm unaware of?