I really don't want to wade into the middle of this, for fear my waders will leak and I'll end up all wet.
But since my name was brought up, here goes...
I think maybe you're both right?
(How's that for ducking fire?)
But I will clear up a few things...
Had you, yourself, looked at his post more carefully, you might have noticed that DuckDog is talking about a very, very different test (of accomplishment, and not at all necessarily inherent ability) than NAVHDA's NA testing: the VJP, which is required of Draghts if their offspring is to be registered as such, rather than German Wirehairs. Of course, most "versatiles" aren't even tested on the very elementary NA level, let alone VJP.
The VJP IS a natural ability test. Dogs are judged on: pointing, search, use of nose, cooperation, and tracking. So naturally, any of those categories that the dog "trained" on or even just exposed the dog to, he's going to score higher than the dog that wasn't worked with at all. Yet, some of those categories, you just can't train.
You can't "train" fire into a pup. If they already have it, and you give them plenty of exposure, you will surely nurture and foster it, but you can't "make" a dog hit the field on fire.
Use of nose is another one...sure, you can give your pup enough opportunities to develop it, but it has to be there to begin with.
The age the dog runs the VJP plays a big part too. They can be anywhere between 6 and 18 months old, depending on when the litter is whelped. Obviously, there's a big difference between a 6 month old pup and an 18 month old pup.
The 18 month old pup should have OB down pat, so naturally he should test higher in cooperation.
But,...again, if the other natural inherited abilities aren't there, you're not going to train them in.
While the natural ability tests surely do not tell a whole story, they are an important piece of the puzzle when you're doing your research if or when you know what you're looking at.
"I would argue" that for any gun dog breed one has to get to the level of trialing, where the best dogs are pitted against the best dogs, rather than a test standard, for the resulting certifications (titles) to be credible indicators of superior inherent ability.
I won't argue that competitive retriever trial titals are important in discerning traits. The training and "pressure" it takes to get a dog to those levels tells you that THAT dog was trainable to that level and had enough natural inherited abilities and desire to make it to that level. And, it might even be more intense than the higher levels of hunt test training. Definitely so in the retriever hunt tests.
But, the finished dog level of JGHV, (and maybe NAVHDA too, but I don't know NAVHDA well enough to say for certain) is real close, or just as intense in terms of ability and training. And, you have to train for a bunch more categories. So, you just can't dismiss VGP scores as "just another hunt test", but you have to know what you're looking at too.
If you're looking at a dog that scored 300+ points with a prize at it's VGP, that is one hell of an accomishment.
If you're looking at a potential breeding match of dogs that have done that, the odds that a pup produced from that litter will have "what it takes" start to improve dramatically. Or, if their parents scored high, or if past litters scored high, or even siblings...It's all just pieces of a puzzle to help you make an informed conclusion.
But,...yea. The VGP is hardcore...
And, just for the record,...I love labs!! If all I did was waterfowl hunt with a pheasant hunt thrown in here and there, I'd probably have another lab. For that particular scenario, it's pretty darn tough to beat a lab.
There isn't a day that goes by that I don't think about ole Rowdy...