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I was pretty nervous about the whole thing, a lot of people get so worked up about it, but so far it's going well. Following Bill Tarrant's and Mike Gould's teachings on table with toe hitch. Spent first few days having fun on the table, running through OB up there, jumping up and back down, and just telling him how wonderful he is. Now he can't wait to jump right up there, has no resistance to the cords and being short tied. Just started pressure with the toe hitch a few days ago and he's still enthusiastic about it. He's holding well and we always finish with him holding while I undo the hitch and cords, then hop him down to deliver at heel. I anticipate some rough spots as we transition to longer reaches (I still have to put it in his mouth sometimes, but he's reaching some too) and then to the ground, etc., but it's been a relief, so far, to not have had any real struggle to contend with.

Of course now that I've written this, our next session is sure to be contentious, but I hope not.

Sweet man. Good luck. And post up some pictures

banknote wrote:I was pretty nervous about the whole thing, a lot of people get so worked up about it, but so far it's going well. Following Bill Tarrant's and Mike Gould's teachings on table with toe hitch. Spent first few days having fun on the table, running through OB up there, jumping up and back down, and just telling him how wonderful he is. Now he can't wait to jump right up there, has no resistance to the cords and being short tied. Just started pressure with the toe hitch a few days ago and he's still enthusiastic about it. He's holding well and we always finish with him holding while I undo the hitch and cords, then hop him down to deliver at heel. I anticipate some rough spots as we transition to longer reaches (I still have to put it in his mouth sometimes, but he's reaching some too) and then to the ground, etc., but it's been a relief, so far, to not have had any real struggle to contend with.

Of course now that I've written this, our next session is sure to be contentious, but I hope not.

I never understood why people both get upset about it and why you sometimes meet hunters who "never felt like their dog needed FFing". People without a force fetched dog are missing out.

My dog took to it like any other step in the training and loved and still loves to get up on the table whenever we do refreshers. I'm glad to see it's going as well for you as it did me. I went into it very nervous but my fears were quickly dismissed after seeing how well my dog handled the pressure and how fast he understood what I was trying to do, which is what FF is all about.

I used the Smart Fetch method by Even Graham.

Olly wrote:

banknote wrote:I was pretty nervous about the whole thing, a lot of people get so worked up about it, but so far it's going well. Following Bill Tarrant's and Mike Gould's teachings on table with toe hitch. Spent first few days having fun on the table, running through OB up there, jumping up and back down, and just telling him how wonderful he is. Now he can't wait to jump right up there, has no resistance to the cords and being short tied. Just started pressure with the toe hitch a few days ago and he's still enthusiastic about it. He's holding well and we always finish with him holding while I undo the hitch and cords, then hop him down to deliver at heel. I anticipate some rough spots as we transition to longer reaches (I still have to put it in his mouth sometimes, but he's reaching some too) and then to the ground, etc., but it's been a relief, so far, to not have had any real struggle to contend with.

Of course now that I've written this, our next session is sure to be contentious, but I hope not.

I never understood why people both get upset about it and why you sometimes meet hunters who "never felt like their dog needed FFing". People without a force fetched dog are missing out.

My dog took to it like any other step in the training and loved and still loves to get up on the table whenever we do refreshers. I'm glad to see it's going as well for you as it did me. I went into it very nervous but my fears were quickly dismissed after seeing how well my dog handled the pressure and how fast he understood what I was trying to do, which is what FF is all about.

I used the Smart Fetch method by Even Graham.

what???? i dont care who FFs or CCs but to say that is just fucking stupid

Banknote sounds great, and good luck with the training.
i do prefer the toe tie on the table,over ear pinch
keep it up and you will have a great hunting partner

Thanks for the encouragement. We just went out for a session and I took a few crappy pics to illustrate. This is my first force breaking, first table, and it's working well but I'm open to suggestions for making it better. It's probably a little higher than ideal, but the legs are steel and the whole thing weighs about 200lbs so it'll just have to do. At least it's sturdy as hell. Cords are clipped to fencing nails in the wall board.

The table. Kiowa took it upon himself to get on up there while I was taking the pic.


He's up and enthused, ready to work. We'll do a little OB to tune him in and then hitch him up.


All hitched up. Not as enthused, but still game.


Holding.


Unhitched and ready for dismount.


I'll have him hop down and deliver to hand at heel. Have him fetch/hold there, then hop up, sit/drop, good boy, fetch/hold, hop down, heel/drop -- do that a couple times then get up on the table with him, give him a big hug and some sweet nothings, then get on outta there.

your table is perfect.most guys dont make them that nice.
great looking dog too

one2many wrote:your table is perfect.most guys dont make them that nice.
great looking dog too

Thanks! Table is just a work bench I already had. Solid as a rock. Pushed it up against the garage wall, screwed the side board into some studs and I'm ready to go.

Kiowa is a week away from his first birthday and only weighs about 55lbs. He'll probably fill out a bit more and add a few more pounds, but based on his parents I expected him to top out about 15-20lbs heavier than he is right now. I didn't want a dog any bigger than that, and I'm actually glad he's smaller. Little fucker moves really well and can run all day!

one2many wrote:what???? i dont care who FFs or CCs but to say that is just fucking stupid

You don't agree that FFing a dog improves the dog? If not why did you FF your dog?

I've met lots of guys that feel they don't need to FF a dog because it goes and get's the duck most of the time. I was simply saying that because of whatever reason they aren't taking that important step in training it's causing them to miss out on how much better their dog could be (at retrieving).

Don't get so butt hurt over something so small.

I've never FF'd any of my dogs, per a program. I've always been ready if it were needed.

Great looking dog banknote, keep up the good work.

Good looking red dog!

My dogs were trains in Chinese so blind partners don't fuck them up.

We hunted this season and he's very enthusiastic about going and getting birds, just not so tuned into bringing them directly to me every time, and when he does he usually drops them. I never really corrected him because I wanted to keep the enthusiasm up, so I often had to go out of the blind to get him to bring the bird, or even go over to where ever he decided to drop and sniff/lick it. In the next 4-6 weeks I hope to have solved all of that.

Bootlipkiller wrote:My dogs were trains in Chinese so blind partners don't fuck them up.

Good idea, really.

I made the mistake of using "OK" as a release word. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb... Now I have to train myself not to say OK, except to release him, and I'm not taking well to the program.

banknote wrote:We hunted this season and he's very enthusiastic about going and getting birds, just not so tuned into bringing them directly to me every time, and when he does he usually drops them. I never really corrected him because I wanted to keep the enthusiasm up, so I often had to go out of the blind to get him to bring the bird, or even go over to where ever he decided to drop and sniff/lick it. In the next 4-6 weeks I hope to have solved all of that.

I think you're on a great path and that's an awesome bench. I used the work top I had in the garage in MI and here I have a small bench in my shed so I'm jealous of the setup.

banknote wrote:

Bootlipkiller wrote:My dogs were trains in Chinese so blind partners don't fuck them up.

Good idea, really.

I made the mistake of using "OK" as a release word. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb... Now I have to train myself not to say OK, except to release him, and I'm not taking well to the program.

I made the same mistake but luckily was able to retrain sprig to send using his name. But that can be a problem also.

Bootlipkiller wrote:

banknote wrote:

Bootlipkiller wrote:My dogs were trains in Chinese so blind partners don't fuck them up.

Good idea, really.

I made the mistake of using "OK" as a release word. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb... Now I have to train myself not to say OK, except to release him, and I'm not taking well to the program.

I made the same mistake but luckily was able to retrain sprig to send using his name. But that can be a problem also.

I send him with either "fetch" or "Ki." I started using OK to release him from sit to eat his food, then it kind of creeped in front of "high-on" as a general release, "OK high-on." Now if I have him at heel and I conversationally say OK to someone, he releases. At first I though he was just randomly breaking on me, but then I realized I was the dumbass.

Unless you're going to use force-to (pile, water, whatever) follow-on methods, it's no great strain to gain everything FF offers before the pup is old enough for traditional FF. And I've found no need for those follow-ons, either. Might not be "stupid" to believe otherwise, but it is ignorant, in the politest sense of the word, of course.

Rick wrote:Unless you're going to use force-to (pile, water, whatever) follow-on methods, it's no great strain to gain everything FF offers before the pup is old enough for traditional FF. And I've found no need for those follow-ons, either. Might not be "stupid" to believe otherwise, but it is ignorant, in the politest sense of the word, of course.

I don't doubt this, but I failed to make these gains prior to hunting season, then decided to back way off on retriever training while hunting was going on. At the same time I found that some OB was faltering and focused back on that for a while. He's much more solid on OB now, and I've learned how to be more patient and less forceful in training. Thus far I've had to apply very little pressure in FF, though I realize this may change. I blame myself for every setback and figure if he ends up a great hunting dog, it will be despite all of my ham-handed mistakes. I'm taking the FF slow and keeping it positive, framing it with easy and enthusiastically praised OB work, and I have no intention to do the follow-ons. May be next dog I'll have it together enough early on to not need it at this stage of the game.

banknote wrote:

Rick wrote:Unless you're going to use force-to (pile, water, whatever) follow-on methods, it's no great strain to gain everything FF offers before the pup is old enough for traditional FF. And I've found no need for those follow-ons, either. Might not be "stupid" to believe otherwise, but it is ignorant, in the politest sense of the word, of course.

I don't doubt this, but I failed to make these gains prior to hunting season, then decided to back way off on retriever training while hunting was going on. At the same time I found that some OB was faltering and focused back on that for a while. He's much more solid on OB now, and I've learned how to be more patient and less forceful in training. Thus far I've had to apply very little pressure in FF, though I realize this may change. I blame myself for every setback and figure if he ends up a great hunting dog, it will be despite all of my ham-handed mistakes. I'm taking the FF slow and keeping it positive, framing it with easy and enthusiastically praised OB work. May be next dog I'll have it together enough early on to not need it at this stage of the game.

Please know I'm not knocking FF, just pointing out that it is a path, not The One True Path. If I were a pro working with whatever baggage came through my gate, I would likely FF, as it's an expeditious way to lay some important foundations. By the same token, if I were a trialer putting a dog through high mental pressure training, I might very well want the momentum maintenance the force-tos apparently afford. Also think it also makes great sense in your position.

Been watching FF evolve for decades and it's been on quite a journey that saw some very dark times, but it's coming around.

Rick wrote:

banknote wrote:

Rick wrote:Unless you're going to use force-to (pile, water, whatever) follow-on methods, it's no great strain to gain everything FF offers before the pup is old enough for traditional FF. And I've found no need for those follow-ons, either. Might not be "stupid" to believe otherwise, but it is ignorant, in the politest sense of the word, of course.

I don't doubt this, but I failed to make these gains prior to hunting season, then decided to back way off on retriever training while hunting was going on. At the same time I found that some OB was faltering and focused back on that for a while. He's much more solid on OB now, and I've learned how to be more patient and less forceful in training. Thus far I've had to apply very little pressure in FF, though I realize this may change. I blame myself for every setback and figure if he ends up a great hunting dog, it will be despite all of my ham-handed mistakes. I'm taking the FF slow and keeping it positive, framing it with easy and enthusiastically praised OB work. May be next dog I'll have it together enough early on to not need it at this stage of the game.

Please know I'm not knocking FF, just pointing out that it is a path, not The One True Path. If I were a pro working with whatever baggage came through my gate, I would likely FF, as it's an expeditious way to lay some important foundations. By the same token, if I were a trialer putting a dog through high mental pressure training, I might very well want the momentum maintenance the force-tos apparently afford. Also think it also makes great sense in your position.

Been watching FF evolve for decades and it's been on quite a journey that saw some very dark times, but it's coming around.

Understood.

The only time I've previously been involved in retriever training was as a kid 35+ years ago with my dad. I was too young to know everything that was done, but I've talked with Dad about it and he's never heard of force fetch, nor does he have recollection of any of the techniques involved. That dog was nothing short of amazing. Not FFed, no e-collar, just a dog that wanted to do everything you asked of him. And that's what my dad will tell you, "He was just an incredible dog."

Since then of course both FF and e-collars have become the norm. These two things have also made it so that just about any dog that isn't brain damaged can be conditioned to do whatever the hell you want them to. Has this caused a shift in breeding, possibly, whether conscious or not, toward more drive while leaving a biddable temperament to chance? It's easier to shut a dog down than to speed him up, so start them up fast and force/electrocute them down to a manageable level; is this where it's gone? Was it not once that only a few pups in a litter would really amount to much of a gun dog, and now every single one of them is expected to?

I don't know, it's just a notion that's crossed my mind these last several months. Maybe I'm completely off base, maybe others have already expressed the same ideas, maybe both.

This dog has a lot of go in him, but I think I knocked some of it down, maybe a little too much and too early, just working on house manners and such. He's built a lot of it back up, but it still shows some times, though I'm glad he's remained confident through FF, so far.

Olly wrote:

one2many wrote:what???? i dont care who FFs or CCs but to say that is just fucking stupid

You don't agree that FFing a dog improves the dog? If not why did you FF your dog?

I've met lots of guys that feel they don't need to FF a dog because it goes and get's the duck most of the time. I was simply saying that because of whatever reason they aren't taking that important step in training it's causing them to miss out on how much better their dog could be (at retrieving).

Don't get so butt hurt over something so small.

Olly, not trying to start shit (for once) but would you mind explaining your statement to me? My dog has always been a solid retriever. Please tell me about what makes it an important step. Never FF'd, although a lot of people believe in it. If anything I have the opposite problem, stopping her from retrieving. Sunday was her birthday, turned 4 and is starting to enter her prime hunting years.

banknote wrote:Since then of course both FF and e-collars have become the norm. These two things have also made it so that just about any dog that isn't brain damaged can be conditioned to do whatever the hell you want them to. Has this caused a shift in breeding, possibly, whether conscious or not, toward more drive while leaving a biddable temperament to chance? It's easier to shut a dog down than to speed him up, so start them up fast and force/electrocute them down to a manageable level; is this where it's gone? Was it not once that only a few pups in a litter would really amount to much of a gun dog, and now every single one of them is expected to?

I've spent a fair bit of time on UK dog boards, where FF and e-collars are commonly frowned on, and frequently seen the argument you're asking about. They'll tell you we're breaking dogs for the qualities we want, while they're breeding for them. And their case sounds reasonable.

But my personal experience has differed. I buy my retriever pups from the heart of US trial Chesapeake breeding, and in the current coyote's case, you'd have to go back six generations to find the appearance of just one dog that wasn't FFed. Yet, the coyote's done just fine without. That doesn't mean he just naturally got everything right, but it was no strain to show him what's required and condition those requirements through other means. And that's not solely because of his "retriever" breeding, though that "don't hurt none". I've also made reliable retrievers of both a West Highland white terrier (to lure his mistress afield) and a beagle, as well my pointing dogs, without FF.

Re: e-collars, only the current Brittany (also from the heart of US trial stock) has worn one, and the only breaking it's done was trash breaking off problems like deer and rotten carcass rolling I wouldn't always be close enough break him off my other means. Other than that, it's been used turn his beeper on and off and little more. (That "little" was actually enough to break me off collars.) Yet, we've readily managed to get some very hot pups in hand and pointed in the right direction early on and keep them there without electronics.

Rick I often wonder if the British are right about our breeding goals. I have never been around one of Milners dogs but always wanted to hunt with one.

There are trial dogs that are too hot for many folks to readily handle, but that's not been the case with the rank and file of what I've seen. The great majority I've been around seemed extremely biddable.

Tomkat wrote:

Olly wrote:

one2many wrote:what???? i dont care who FFs or CCs but to say that is just fucking stupid

You don't agree that FFing a dog improves the dog? If not why did you FF your dog?

I've met lots of guys that feel they don't need to FF a dog because it goes and get's the duck most of the time. I was simply saying that because of whatever reason they aren't taking that important step in training it's causing them to miss out on how much better their dog could be (at retrieving).

Don't get so butt hurt over something so small.

Olly, not trying to start shit (for once) but would you mind explaining your statement to me? My dog has always been a solid retriever. Please tell me about what makes it an important step. Never FF'd, although a lot of people believe in it. If anything I have the opposite problem, stopping her from retrieving. Sunday was her birthday, turned 4 and is starting to enter her prime hunting years.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1392438373.927719.jpg

I thought we had talked about this.

I could see force fetching your dog if it was naturally a poor retriever I guess

Tomkat wrote:

Olly wrote:

one2many wrote:what???? i dont care who FFs or CCs but to say that is just fucking stupid

You don't agree that FFing a dog improves the dog? If not why did you FF your dog?

I've met lots of guys that feel they don't need to FF a dog because it goes and get's the duck most of the time. I was simply saying that because of whatever reason they aren't taking that important step in training it's causing them to miss out on how much better their dog could be (at retrieving).

Don't get so butt hurt over something so small.

Olly, not trying to start shit (for once) but would you mind explaining your statement to me? My dog has always been a solid retriever. Please tell me about what makes it an important step. Never FF'd, although a lot of people believe in it. If anything I have the opposite problem, stopping her from retrieving. Sunday was her birthday, turned 4 and is starting to enter her prime hunting years.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1392438373.927719.jpg

stopping her from retrieving? As in she breaks?

Sometimes. She has a big motor.

Thats where I am asking about FF. She is a bit CC; I have been training her to hold and carry bumpers ect on command. But no table, hitch or. Pinch. Just low pressure until she complies and instant relief. In fact she got the idea very quickly, it has been an easy lesson. I don't know what Jarbo did but taz will carry stuff like crazy.